ken castor

Commencement Address @ Crown College

On Saturday I had the privilege of delivering the faculty address to the graduating class of 2011 at Crown College.  Below is the unedited manuscript of the address:

"Friends and family of Crown College, faculty, staff, Trustees, and the graduating class of 2011: Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.

But I have one question for you: Why are you leaving me?  I just got here!  God has given you incredible talent and passion and vision.  You inspire me to be creative in worship and to pray deeply and to search for ways to love people better… and now you are just going to leave me here?  With Dr. Moats?   I mean, have you seen us sitting next to each other?  I asked Professor Grainger to switch spots with me and he said, “Sorry, you’re on your own Castor.”  But seriously, why do you want to go?  You paid all this money to be here.  You invested all this time and effort in this experience.  Why leave?  What do you see out there that is worth going towards?  Aren’t you nervous?  Aren’t you scared?  Are you excited to go?  Are you compelled to step out there?  What do you see that causes you joy or maybe a sense of relief that this day is here?  Why do you celebrate today?

Do you see Jesus out there?

A.W. Tozer wrote that “Faith is the gaze of a soul upon a saving God (Pursuit of God, 83)…  Believing, then, is directing the heart’s attention to Jesus (84)… Faith is not in itself a meritorious act; the merit is in the One toward Whom it is directed (84-85).”  In other words, Hebrews 12:2: “Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith.”

I want to encourage you today and for the rest of your lives to see Jesus.  Today, decide to take your walk with your focus on Jesus because if you do, not only will you walk through life with unsinkable strength, but your feet will bring Good News to places where others will not, or think they cannot, go.  If you walk with your focus on Jesus, you will capably stroll through any adversity and step through any chaos and you will, with every footstep, carry with you a dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ.   I pray today, as your name is called, and as you are invited to walk across this platform, that you will continue to walk through this life with your eyes on Jesus. 

Your experience at Crown has been meant to encourage you to reach this day.  Crown has intended for you to integrate your knowledge of faith and learning with your practice of faith and learning.  You are supposed to put your foot where your mouth has been.  If you speak words of faith, then walk fully in faith.  If you say you are a Christian, than walk with Jesus, like Jesus, where Jesus walks, even in places beyond what you could ask or imagine, even in places where the rest of the world would not dream possible.

In Matthew 14, darkness and chaos were swirling around the Sea of Galilee.  Jesus had told his disciples after feeding thousands of people, “Look, you’ve spent enough time here, it’s time to go somewhere else.”  When the disciples left they were caught in the middle of a storm during the middle of the night in the middle of a wee boat. Their boat was being tossed about.  They were fighting heavy waves and trying to stay afloat.  Even with some experienced fisherman on board, they were scared.  Exhausted at three in the morning, not knowing how they were going to keep going… much like many of you during this last Exam week… tired and weary and anxious and cranky and not knowing how you were going to survive another Dr. Ratledge exam… these followers of Jesus looked up and saw with their very own eyes that someone was strolling through the turbulence of the wind and ambling on top of the waves of the water. 

There in the middle of the Sea, in the middle of the storm, in the midst of the breakers and rains and trouble, was Jesus.  Psalm 93 says, “Mightier than the breakers of the sea, the Lord on High is mighty!”  It’s interesting that the disciples were more scared of Him than they were of staying in the confines of the boat.  They didn’t really expect to see Him there.  It was beyond their comprehension that Jesus would be out there already.  And they were nervously frightened. 

So Jesus called out to them, “It’s alright.  I am here.  Do not be afraid.”

If all that wasn’t crazy enough, what happened next is.  One of the disciples, Peter, was inspired.  And he got passionate.  And he yelled out, “Lord, if it’s really you, tell me to come to you on the water.  Look, I know I’ve invested so much money and time in this boat and with my buddies, but if that’s you out there that’s where I want to be.” Peter realized that he would be better off out there in the middle of the chaos than to remain in the seeming comfort of the boat.  So when Jesus said, “alright, Peter, come.  No problem at all,” Peter stepped over the edge and got down out of the boat.  When Jesus invites a person forward, it’s time for that person to come forward.  So that’s what Peter did.  When he was called, Peter took a step and started to walk on the water (the water!!) and he walked towards Jesus.

Now I have a problem with that.  You can’t just do that.  You can’t just put your foot down on water and start going.  Peter should have stayed back with his friends and had late night chats in Miller or something.  It’s crazy to step out there.

But after a couple steps, the Bible tells us something very interesting.  Matthew, who was in the boat watching this with his eyes, says that all of the sudden Peter was out there and SAW the wind and he grew afraid and started to sink.  He saw the wind… He had been looking at Jesus… but then he looked at the storm around him… He focused on the turmoil and the trouble he was in… He eyed the situation (water + wind + storm + feet on waves = woops)… and he took his eyes off of Jesus and he began to sink.  The pressure, the urgency, the distraction of everything around him caused him to be overwhelmed and to panic.  He lost his focus.  He took his eyes off of Jesus and put his eyes on other things.  He became scared.  In desperation and fear he screamed out, “Lord, save me!  I can’t make it!”  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him.  And Jesus said to Peter, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?”  In other words, Jesus said, “Peter, I am out here.  I am walking with you.  And as long as you are with me, you can walk anywhere.”

Graduates of Crown College, I believe that the years ahead for each of you will be much like a water walk…  You are stepping out of a wee boat where there has been relative safety and predictability.  You knew that Jon Enns was going to break sticks every time he played drums.  You knew that you could talk Professor Grainger into doing a cartwheel and that you could talk Professor Allen into making a Justin Beiber video out of it.  You knew that Dr. Hustad and Dr. Gianolous at some point were going to renew their arm-wrestling rivalry, and you knew that is was totally real.  You knew that the environment would provide you with inspiration and challenge, and you knew that your roommates or friends would be there for you.  You knew that Bill Kuhn would break out with some amazing guitar rift and some dramatic challenge from Scripture, and you knew that you were being encouraged to integrate your faith and learning with your heart and practice. 

But now either you are being forced to go from here because five or six years is too long for any one of you to stay, or there is some crazy strong inner compulsion that has been urging you to finish your program and to leave the seeming-safety and comfortable predictability of this college and exchange it for the unpredictability of water-walking.  There is some crazy strong inner yearning that makes you desire what’s out there on the surface of the sea more than to keep your trust in a self-controlled environment.  You have decided (by passing your classes!) that staying in that boat after today wouldn’t give you the passion, the life, the rewarding risk, the great exhilaration of experiencing a true water walk.

So today you step out to walk on a whole new surface.  But, as you know, that surface at times will be bumpy and uneven, rising and falling, and difficult to stay balanced upon.  As you know, pressures of life and relationships and other stresses will swirl all around you and try to toss you about.  In those times a lot of people are tempted to take their eyes off of what is right and true… they forget the passion that urged them to jump into this in the first place.  Look, the winds of life will blow no matter what.  The question is: will your focus remain firmly on Jesus? 

I believe that this graduating class can be one that walks through anything anywhere with joy, humility and strength; wonderment, miraculous ability and life-giving hope.  And when the people around you see you looking at Jesus, I believe they will be encouraged to take that step to join you on the water walk.  This world desperately needs people who are willing to step out there.

And, Graduates, in the weeks, months and years ahead, if you ever find that you are starting to sink, if you ever become overwhelmed by what’s around you, if you ever lose sight of what is good and true, just cry out to Jesus.  He is with you.  He will catch you. 

So, dear partners in ministry, fellow water walkers, may you turn your eyes upon Jesus, and look full in His wonderful face.  May the things of earth, that blow and storm around you, grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace.  Amen.  And congratulations on your walk.

GROW DOWN message @ Crown College Chapel

Had a great time sharing  one of my favorite themes with the students of Crown College a couple days ago.  I've written many times on this site about the concept GROW DOWN as God's pattern for our lives as opposed to the world's perspective of growing up into adulthood.  Over the last several years I've spoken on this topic more than 2 dozen times in various settings in 3 different countries and in various ways (large and small gatherings)... and it just keeps getting fresher for me personally each time.  I pray that I will be organized enough and be given the opportunity to write it down in book form soon... but the prodding in my heart hasn't hit hard enough quite yet. For now... please have a listen and provide any encouraging/constructive feedback.  I pray this talk encourages you: iTunes link--> GROWdownCrownCollege or mp3:

2011-1-31 Dr. Ken Castor

ps. Thanks to my friend Ronald Danatus for the photo...

 

social justice & jesus

Had a great time with my Social Justice students at Crown College this morning.  We're just starting a section of the course focusing on what the Bible has to say about issues of injustice in our world.  Matthew 25:31+ was the subject of our first investigation... a convicting passage... a humiliating passage for a self-secure religious person who doesn't do much about their faith... and a humbling passage for everyone.  Jesus is judge.  Jesus will judge.  And his judgment will be based on whether we loved God and whether we loved others.  Important discussion.

Anyway, thought some of you might enjoy seeing my chalkboard art stemming from the class...

Generational Transference in the Bible: Implications for Today's North American Church (Part 5)

(Continued from previous post...)

            Fourth, the central task of local church leadership is discipleship and equipping.  God raises leaders in order to equip others for the work of his ministry.  “While pastors do many things,” Snyder expresses, “the overriding task that gives pattern and focus to everything else is the equipping of the whole community for effective mission.”^[1]  Everything a leader does in the context of community should be filtered through the lens of the purpose of Ephesians 4:11-12.  Such a focus demolishes the model many churches have inherited which creates segmentation between clergy and laity. 1 Peter and Revelations endorse the priesthood of all believers as foundational to the interconnectedness of individuals towards the pursuit of mission. [2]  1 Peter 2:9 says, “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.”  The biblical concept is that everyone is called to minister and serve in the missional identity of the church according to the way God has gifted them.  The role of pastors, for instance, is to enable individuals within the context of community to accomplish the task God has specifically given them.  Embedded in the framework of every-member ministry is a functional-mindset of ministry leadership over that of a positional-mindset.  While terms like pastor, elder, prophet, bishop, etc, can be viewed as titles representing ecclesial offices, Ephesians 4 encourages the view that these are descriptive terms expressing how certain people are to function within the body of the Christ’s church.  The role of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in Ephesians 4:11-12, is “to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”  As Frank Viola has suggested, the New Testament roles of the church give the notion of leadership as resting upon functionality more than positional understandings.^[3]

            R. Paul Stevens and Phil Collins have stated “that the stagnation of the laity is caused mainly be the frustrating power of church system that keeps the laity marginalized and prevents the pastor from doing the most important work” of equipping the laity for the work of ministry.^[4]  Equipping others becomes grounded in relationship, spiritual character and mission, just as Jesus modeled, rather than upon programmatic ministry traditions.^[5]

            Ephesians 4:11-12 establishes the functionality of church leaders in terms of “preparing” or “equipping” others for the sake of the missional identity of the church. 
“Equipping” as a word is derived from Paul’s use katartismon, which means to “make fully ready.”^[6]  So according to Paul, the role of church leadership is to make the people of the church fully ready for the praxis of serving God and others so that the church will fully function according to its identity and mission. 

            Wilkes describes the koine derivation of katartismon as being from two different contexts: 1) the medical practice and 2) the fishing industry.^[7]  In the medical field, the koine definition of katartismon implied the setting of a broken bone in order “to prepare it for healing.”  In the context of fishing, the koine definition referred to the process of fisherman who worked to “equip” their nets at the end of their casting sessions so that the nets would be prepared for service during the next phase of fishing.  Both of these contexts, according to Wilkes, “provide leaders with images of their job.  To equip the church is to prepare its members to perform their part of the mission.  If the church were a net, the leader’s job would be to prepare that net” in order to enable the church to “fish for men.”^[8]  And with the metaphor of the church as a body, the leader’s responsibility is to “set the fractured parts of the body so they can heal and eventually function” alongside the other parts of the body as a whole.^[9]

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^[1] Snyder, 91

[2] 1 Peter 2:5, 9; Revelations 1:6; 5:10; 20:6

^[3] Viola, Frank, Reimagining Church: Pursuing the Dream of Organic Christianity (Colorado Springs, CO: David C. Cook Publishers, 2008), 154

^[4] Stevens, xiii

^[5] Stevens, 37

^[6] Zodhiates, Spiros, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (Chattanooga, TN: 1992), 843

^[7] Wilkes, 186

^[8] Matthew 4:19

^[9] Wilkes, 186

Generational Transference in the Bible: The Gospels

 

             John Wilkes suggests, “Responsibility without authority disables rather than empowers followers.”^[1]  So it is that Jesus gave his authority and blessing to his disciples.  Jesus gave them opportunities to practice the challenges to leadership through an environment in which they were formed spiritually and empowered.  It’s interesting to note that Jesus sent the twelve disciples on a responsibility-based action-learning experience early on in his ministry.^[2]  He then did the same with seventy-two followers.^[3]             

            But with authority came also the necessity of humility to pass on ministry to the next generation.  “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them,” Jesus said.  And, perhaps by no coincidence, Jesus calls his followers his children, and then passes on responsibility to them.^[4]  He then intimates that his disciples will carry on his mission after him through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.^[5]

            These emerging leaders were entrusted not just with the responsibility of continuing the mission of Jesus, but also enabled with the permission, opportunity and capability to do so.  “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,”^[6] Jesus said.  And the authoritative responsibility transferred to this group of next generation leaders was specifically in the interest of developing further successive generations of leaders.  In fact, because all of Jesus’ authority had been transferred to the disciples, their appropriate action was to “therefore, go and make disciples of all nations.”^[7]  Jesus demonstrated the fruitfulness of generational transference by sharing the responsibility of God’s mission with others.  To give authority and responsibility to the disciples demonstrated how much Jesus valued these people as leaders.  Wilkes comments,  “when Jesus called the disciples to himself on the side of a hill and commissioned them to continue that mission, he was not abdicating his own responsibility for it - he was sharing that responsibility.”^[8]

            The Gospel of John illustrates the transfer of leadership in terms of mission and character.  For instance, John the Baptist, resolute in purpose, promoted Jesus through personal humility.  John the Baptist described Jesus saying, “the one who comes after me has surpassed me.”^[9]  There is not a hint of possessive leadership with John the Baptist.  When Jesus came onto the scene, John the Baptist encouraged his own disciples, in whom he had been investing himself, to follow Jesus.  While this example is not generational according to age, it is generational according to transference of ministry leadership.  John the Baptist, in many ways, ordains Jesus publicly and releases others to follow him.

            The Gospel of John then portrays Jesus as a leader who raises other leaders up through personal humility.  “I am the Good Shepherd who lays down his life for the sheep,” Jesus told his disciples.^[10]  Before the Last Supper, John reveals the posture of leadership that effectively transfers ministry.  John wrote:

          “Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power... so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist.  After that he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples‘ feet.”^[11]

 

            Bruce Milne noted the self-sacrifice for others and the humility of Jesus as the true model for leadership.  There can be no possessive tendency for the leader of biblical patterning.  As Jesus led his disciples through humble service and releasing strategies, so he instructs them to do the same.  Jesus says, “Now that I have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet.”^[12]  Milne argued:

“The aim of many leaders today,” Milne argues, “is their own glory.  Not truly loving those they lead, they use them as a means to their own personal satisfaction.  It is the leadership of the hireling, not of the shepherd.  This principle is certainly not confined to the church.  Leadership, whether in political life, industry, business, or community, follows one of these two routes.  Either it is directed to the self-life of the leader, or it is directed selflessly for the good of those who are led.  The former is the way of the world, which leads to death; the latter is the way of Jesus, which leads to life."^[13]

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^[1] Wilkes, C. Gene.  Jesus on Leadership: Discovering the Secrets of Servant Leadership from the Life of Christ.  (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 1998), 181-182

^[2] Matthew 10:5

^[3] Luke 10:1

^[4] John 13:33

^[5] John 15:26-27

^[6] Matthew 28:18

^[7] Matthew 28:19

^[8] Wilkes, p.181

^[9] John 1:15

^[10] John 10:11-15

^[11] John 13:2-5

^[12] John 13:14

^[13] Milne, John.  The Message of John (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993), 149

nekrosate

Hiker who cut-off arm tells his story

A few years ago there was the story of the hiker, Aaron Ralston, who cut off his arm in order to save his life. His right arm became trapped under an 800lb boulder while hiking alone. For days he lay dying, unable to get free, unable to be found by searchers. His arm was pretty much dead... and if he didn't get free from it he would soon be dead himself. He finally got to a point in his mind where he knew he had to do something drastic. In order to live, he had to cut off his arm. Aaron Ralston said that his decision gave him life.

It's an amazing story. And I couldn't help thinking about it as I read through Colossians 3:5 today. Paul talks about getting rid of the part of you that leads to death. Jesus also talks about it in Matthew 5:30. These passages talk about sin, not boulders... But as I read these passages I couldn't get the image of Aaron's struggle with the boulder out of my mind.

Paul says in Colossians that we are dead in our sin. And because of that, we should get rid of those things that keep us trapped in sin = death. Too often we read passages like this like they are a list of rules. This just can't be true. In the section just before this, in Colossians chapter 2, Paul talks about how "rules" are useless and just create problems. In Christ we are free, Paul says. And because we are free from rules, we shouldn't live enslaved to the rules of sin. It's that simple, and yes, that mind-transforming. Christ is your real life, Paul says (Col 3:4). Sin is not your real life. It is fake. It is enticingly false. Sin is a way of thinking you are alive, but it's all a falling trap.  Your real life is free, Paul says. So cut off what traps you.

In Colossians 3:5 Paul uses the word, nekrosate (nek-row-saw-tae), which means "make dead" or "kill completely". Paul encourages us to kill off the influence of sexual sin (pornea), of impurity, of lust (pathos), of evil desire, of greed, and of idolatry. This isn't a list of heaviness or negativism. It is a reminder of the things that can get us stuck. But the Good News is that we don't have to be stuck by them! In Christ we are free. In Christ we are a new creation. In Christ we live abundantly. So why would we be satisfied with being trapped? It just makes freeing sense that in our attitude and actions we should be willing to actually make dead the things that will, left unchecked, be the death of us. It's a hard step of faith, and it's a hard decision, and it's an attitude of desperation, and it might be excruciating. But we must decide to cut off what so easily entangles us and what slowly leads to our death.

Hmmm. Just a thought this morning.  

Rooted Faith: Go Out (part 3)

(...continued from yesterday...)

3. Fruitlessness produces nothing good.
I think we want it to be different.  I think we want to be a part of a vibrant movement of faith.  But fruitlessness produces nothing good.  In Mark chapter 11, on their way to the Temple in Jerusalem, Jesus and his disciples passed by this healthy, good-looking fig tree.  The tree really looked great.  The leaves were incredible.  But Jesus stepped in for a closer look and discovered the good-looking fig tree had a problem.  It had no figs.  The fig-tree was fruitless.  Jesus got quite upset and he cursed the tree!  They all went on to the Temple, which was busy with religious activity and looked healthy and vibrant, and full of people attending and doing their religious duty.  But Jesus stepped in for a closer look and he was frustrated by what he saw.  The Temple- a place where people were supposed to come and be changed by their focus on the Lord- was not rooted in God anymore.  In the Temple that day were distracted hearts.  There were marketers, set up to sell their goods and make a profit, stealing attention from God and probably stealing some money from the people who had come.  This practice was cheapening the spiritual formation of the people.  And everybody seemed to be just fine with it all.  Except for Jesus.  He got really upset.  And he cursed the Temple!  He went around overturning all of the selling tables and driving out everyone associated with this unfaithful system.  He chastised everyone saying, “My Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations but you have turned it into a den of thieves.”  Quite a day! ☺

The next morning Jesus and his disciples passed by the same old fig tree again.  But this time, when they saw the tree, the disciples noticed that it didn’t look very good anymore.  In fact, this fruitless fig tree, was completely shriveled-up and dead!  Mark notes that the tree had withered from the roots up.  It dried up from its source.  All of the sudden what looked to be pretty and impressive on the outside was cut off from its source and couldn’t draw up the nutrition it needed.

No matter how impressive the expression of religiosity, no matter how grand of a building or prestige or reputation they once had, if at their roots a generation rejects the opportunity to grow down deep into the soil of God’s marvelous love and draw up life from him, that generation or that person or that system of religion will shrivel up.

I fear that if Jesus took a close look at our good-looking expression of Christianity from the 20th and 21st century in North America he might be really upset with the lack of fruit… with the shallow roots… with the poor spiritual nutrition.  It is clear in Scripture that those who claim to be religious but who are actually only dressed up, only appearing to be good in their church habits, do not please God. Read Matthew 25 or Luke chapter 11.  The harshest words in Scripture are reserved for those who pretend outwardly to be close to God but who lack the inner heart of faith to produce fruit from God.

Matthew 7:17 says “A healthy tree produces good fruit… And every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire.”  Faithlessness produces fruitlessness and fruitlessness produces nothing good.

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Full audio version of this sermon.  Download June 21 09 Ken Castor 

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Admittedly, we in Calgary are extremely consumeristic and wealthy compared to most other places on the earth.  We are caught up in a pattern of giving money mastery over us.  We are so full while others all around the world are so hungry.  We are so rich while others all around the world struggle in extreme poverty.  We have to start doing something to make ourselves more aware and to make ourselves more Christian in our worldview.  So on March 22 the hub is launching a week of awareness and action based on Matthew 6.   We'll be participating in the Samaritans Purse Turn on the Tap project, engaging with the documentary E is for Everyone: The Mouse and the Elephant, doing daily devotionals related to this issue, and capping the week with World Vision's 30 Hour Famine.  It's only a start... but it hopefully will catalyze so much more.  If you'd like to join us, be praying about participating with us in this covenant from March 22-28:

THIS WEEK...

... I will live with less.
... I will be aware of those who have little when I have much.
... I will give up buying something I want.
... I will ask God about the place possessions hold in my life.
... I will ask God to realign my heart with His.

christmas meditation two

2. Christmas is about each of us coming to meet Jesus:

The Christmas passages, and the whole rest of the Bible, share that each of us is to come and meet Jesus so that we could have an eternal relationship with him.  For example, the book of Matthew is absolutely full with this concept of each of us coming to meet Jesus:

2:1-2, 11  After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews?  We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."… (v11) On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshipped him.  Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

4:19-20 Jesus says:  "Come, follow me and I will make you fishers of men." 

11:28 Jesus says:  "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

14:28-29 Jesus is walking on the water and Peter cries out:  "Lord, if it's you, tell me to come to you on the water."  "Come," he said.

christmas meditation one

1. Christmas is about Jesus coming to meet each of us:

The Christmas passages, and the whole rest of the Bible, tell us that Jesus came to the earth so that he could meet us and have an eternal relationship with us.  For example, the book of Matthew is jam-packed with this concept of Jesus coming to meet us:

2:6  But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.

3:11, 13 John the Baptist had this to say about Jesus: "I baptize you with water for repentance.  But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry.  He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire"… (Matthew then lets us know in verse 13 that) Then Jesus came…

5:17 Jesus has this to say about himself:  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

9:13 Jesus says:  I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

20:28 Jesus sums it up for us. He says:  The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Christmas is about Jesus coming to meet us- so that we could have a relationship with him.